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Cacophanus
Joined: 06 Dec 2007
Location: UK
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 Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 7:15 am Post subject: |
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| Ashura wrote: |
I nominate some Virtual On, though I don't have any shots offhand.
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Oratorio Tangram also looks suitably lovely...
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Persona-sama
Joined: 06 Dec 2007
Location: Acrylic Polymer Dismulsion
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| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 10:32 am Post subject: |
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I could never aim that surfboard attack or Viper's SLC attack properly!
Also, yeah, Virtual On is probably the best use of early 3d hardware since all the models aren't actually simplifications to represent something more complicated like people, but are rather pure depictions of the awesome blockiness of giant robots battling it out in hangars, on top of buildings, and in spaceports.
Also, this link is relevant: http://losangeles.craigslist.org/lac/tag/784513003.html
I wonder if I should email the guy.
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Cacophanus
Joined: 06 Dec 2007
Location: UK
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| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Persona-sama wrote: |
I could never aim that surfboard attack or Viper's SLC attack properly!
Also, yeah, Virtual On is probably the best use of early 3d hardware since all the models aren't actually simplifications to represent something more complicated like people, but are rather pure depictions of the awesome blockiness of giant robots battling it out in hangars, on top of buildings, and in spaceports.
Also, this link is relevant: http://losangeles.craigslist.org/lac/tag/784513003.html
I wonder if I should email the guy. |
I have one of those! If you can ship it easily that's a very good price.
The surf board and SLC were homing attacks, so I'm not sure how you'd aim them?
The designs were beautifully bespoke though, as Katoki had to simplify them as per the poly-count specified by the developers. What's more impressive is that in 1994 he actually understood the ramifications of that in terms of hand drawn mechanical design. Few mecha designers can visualise the full three dimensional proportions of imaginary mecha unaided (as people like Kawamori use Lego, which is cheating really).
We so need a new arcade Virtual on...
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Persona-sama
Joined: 06 Dec 2007
Location: Acrylic Polymer Dismulsion
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| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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Somehow I'd miss them! It'd either fly into the wall or finish before hitting the enemy. :/
Yeah, Kataoki is a genius. His Virtual On designs are beautiful and classic, defining a look that isn't Gundam but a definite visual standard of its own. It's amazing.
I also await the day Sega finally makes a new Virtual On for the arcades taking advantage of the Sega-net and such. Also, a home console port would be good too.
It's like after the failure of Marz, they gave up on the franchise. Where is Hitmaker and what are they doing? ?
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Cacophanus
Joined: 06 Dec 2007
Location: UK
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| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 11:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Persona-sama wrote: |
Somehow I'd miss them! It'd either fly into the wall or finish before hitting the enemy. :/
Yeah, Kataoki is a genius. His Virtual On designs are beautiful and classic, defining a look that isn't Gundam but a definite visual standard of its own. It's amazing.
I also await the day Sega finally makes a new Virtual On for the arcades taking advantage of the Sega-net and such. Also, a home console port would be good too.
It's like after the failure of Marz, they gave up on the franchise. Where is Hitmaker and what are they doing? ? |
Marz was a port of Force and much of the original arcade team had disbanded by that point anyway. Though the main exodus had occurred a few years earlier when the DC version of Oratorio Tangram was released, as many of the team weren't paid their "bonuses" (or their actual salary). Many ended up at Squaresoft if I remember correctly.
Even Juro Watari is not really up to much these days, stranded somewhere in middle management last I heard.
I did know of a Virtual On game in the works a few years back though, it was Naomi 2 and then prototyped on Lindbergh. Much more like the original game (so back to two player basically) but exceedingly quick. I'm amazed they didn't follow through with it as the fanbase is pretty damn big in Japan (I still see people playing Oratan 5.66 whenever go back, always good fun to hand a few people their ass only to realise a chubby British bloke brought about their demise).
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Ashura
Joined: 28 Dec 2007
Location: Far East of Eden
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| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 10:39 am Post subject: |
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Man, VO doesn't even look dated.
I think VO was the first game which showed me how fonts by themselves can do badass things. The HUD and everything in VO is minimalistic, but it's so darn stylish due to the fonts used and their placement.
Does anyone know how good the PS2 port of VO is?
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lordnikon
Joined: 06 Dec 2007
Location: Chicago
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| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Ashura wrote: |
| Does anyone know how good the PS2 port of VO is? |
It is superb. The fan service is through the roof. You can even play as Z-Gradt ;) Cacophanus's shots above for cybertroopers are actually from the PS2 version.
One thing I would like to elaborate on while we are discussing the game, is the LAN option for Virtual On's PS2 Sega Ages release. You can connect 2 PS2's together for LAN networked multiplayer, and additional PS2's for "viewing" monitors of the match in progress (awesome for tournament play). I have tested the game tunneled online, and it does NOT perform well over standard broadband connections. Virtual On for PS2 is setup for "frame sync" rather than positional data. Which means it performs similar to the 3 LAN games available for gamecube. Works flawless over a LAN, but online, it requires some serious juice because it is syncing every single frame. It doesn't drop any frames, so what you have is the game running in slow motion. (Feel free to contact me via PM if you have more questions)
Back ontopic, as with a lot of the games we are discussing, Virtual On is a game where you wouldn't want to the graphics changed much at all. It is a situation where you say "no don't touch it, leave it alone, this can barely be improved, and if you try you will ruin it". I think this the sticking point for what makes certain low poly games timeless.
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Ashura
Joined: 28 Dec 2007
Location: Far East of Eden
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| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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I'm afraid if they made a new Virtual On they would add all sorts of crazy lighting and shadows to it, and it would lose the colorful, dare I say, cartoony look of it?
Everyone's afraid of bright colors nowadays.
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lordnikon
Joined: 06 Dec 2007
Location: Chicago
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| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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Regardless of what happens to any given franchise, such as say Virtual On, atleast we have the great games that have been released thus far.
If they happen to ruin Virtual On's visual asthetic in the future, I will simply continue to play Cyber Troopers, VOOT, and... sometimes Marz.
This is what I keep saying to ground myself in a state of sanity each time I see a company like Sega (new Golden Axe, After Burner PSP, SMB Adventure) or Capcom (Final Fight Streetwise), take one of their franchises and rape them to death. Oddly enough this seems to happen whenever they lend it to a western developer who has spent the entirety of their existance trying to improve the rendering of realistic shadows across brick walls.
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plumcarrot
Joined: 03 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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| with the exception of outrun, also by SEGA
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Persona-sama
Joined: 06 Dec 2007
Location: Acrylic Polymer Dismulsion
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| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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The new Bionic Commando looks pretty good though.
Street Fighter HD just looks silly though.
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lordnikon
Joined: 06 Dec 2007
Location: Chicago
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| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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| plumcarrot wrote: |
| with the exception of outrun, also by SEGA |
"also" by sega? as if the ones I mentioned were by sega? The games I mentioned were all titles developed by western developers, and not the divisions that most Sega fans are familiar with from the Saturn/Dreamcast era.
Travellers Tales made SMB Adventure.
Planet Moon Studios made After Burner Black Falcon.
Secret Level is making the new Golden Axe.
As for Final Fight Streetwise that was developed by Capcom Studio 8, which was the company's US development house.
For good measure we might as well toss in Sega Rally Revo as well, which was nothing like a Sega arcade experience in the slightest. It was more like a codemasters game. Funny how that company bought out the studio after Sega dropped them.
All of these games failed to capture the arcade gameplay and visual asthetics of the games they were based upon. For some reason western developers are dislexic when it comes to generating games with style and over the top personality. Now this isn't to say the West is never capable of making an over the top arcade game, or that the Japanese always get it right (Sega Rally 2006 wasn't necessarily indicative of the series either).
The recent Outrun games were all developed by Sega AM2, which makes Outrun 2 and SP, original Sega goodness. It is true that Sumo Digital, a western studio, ported the game to home consoles. However the porting process, outside of performance snags, has no impact on the original source material. Which in Outrun's case is and still is Sega AM2 originated.
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Now bringing this back to Virtual On, I think it is very unlikely Sega would allow the game to steer away from its roots. For starters, everything about the game is so unorthodox. The graphics, the controls, everything. Sega of Japan would never authorize a Virtual On game to be developed by the west, since they would destroy it. The things that make Virtual On unique, are its control set, and stylistic low-poly look. Almost everyone in the west considers Virtual On's control scheme to be archaic and broken. They simply don't understand it. Not every single game on the planet is supposed to control like your typical FPS. This isn't mech assault we are talking about here.
Heaven forbid, if anyone in the west ever does create a Virtual On game, it would be a catastrophic nightmare of epic proportions. Light bloom, gatling guns, environmental maps, ok... if I think about this anymore... i'm going to blow my brains out...
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Persona-sama
Joined: 06 Dec 2007
Location: Acrylic Polymer Dismulsion
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| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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Capcom Studio 8 also made Maximo and its sequel, which were supposed to be pretty good.
They also made the Saturn Final Fight fighting game, which was supposed to be pretty bad though.
Also, I think a competent western developer could do Virtual On justice. Look what Retro Studios did for Metroid!
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TapamN
Joined: 09 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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| lordnikon wrote: |
As for Final Fight Streetwise that was developed by Capcom Studio 8, which was the company's US development house.
[...]
All of these games failed to capture the arcade gameplay and visual asthetics of the games they were based upon. For some reason western developers are dislexic when it comes to generating games with style and over the top personality. Now this isn't to say the West is never capable of making an over the top arcade game, or that the Japanese always get it right (Sega Rally 2006 wasn't necessarily indicative of the series either).
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Uhm... just as an aside, the Streetwise people were told to make it like that by Capcom Japan.
http://hg101.classicgaming.gamespy.com/finalfight/finalfight2.htm
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| [...] according to one of the developers, the original plan was to make a cel-shaded 3D beat-em-up using character designs from Capcom mainstay artist Akiman, but the suits in Japan wanted them to make the game more "American". |
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plumcarrot
Joined: 03 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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| when sega does well it goes unaccredited. like choosing a western developer to port outrun.
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lordnikon
Joined: 06 Dec 2007
Location: Chicago
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| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Persona-sama wrote: |
Capcom Studio 8 also made Maximo and its sequel, which were supposed to be pretty good.
They also made the Saturn Final Fight fighting game, which was supposed to be pretty bad though.
Also, I think a competent western developer could do Virtual On justice. Look what Retro Studios did for Metroid! |
Yea the Maximo are decent games.
As for Metroid Prime, I worship those games on GameCube. They are incredible. I often bring it up just like you have, as an example that a western team can make a game that not only performs well, but also has highly creative art direction that was crafted to precision. However that situation is rather rare these days.
Note I stated above:
"Now this isn't to say the West is never capable of making an over the top arcade game, or that the Japanese always get it right (Sega Rally 2006 wasn't necessarily indicative of the series either)."
It is definatly possible for a western developer to make a game that looks compelling and has good gameplay. It is just very rare when this actually happens. So many western games attempt to model objects based on real life. They want to make grass look just like real grass, and for walls to look just like real walls.
One of my long standing theories is that something gets lost between the concept artists (who actually draw and paint concept material for the game), and the 3D modelers and texture developers.
Check out this concept art for the up coming Resistance 2 game:
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/game/docs/20080806/r203.htm
Now check it out in 3D
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/game/docs/20080806/r204.htm
The concept art looks unbelievable. Whereas the 3D rendition looks stale and uninteresting.
In keeping with the spirit of the thread, lets take a look at a game made by Visual Concepts. VC was making all of the 2K Sports *snor* games on Dreamcast. However when they were left to their own devices to come up with something original, they made this game:
That's right. Ooga Booga. This game is just flatout awesome. I had the luxury of playing this game online with a bunch of friends and it was one of the best online experience I have ever had. Boar Polo matches could go on forever. (I so miss this game online, sadly it was terminated in the Spring of 2003).
Ooga Booga is ultra low poly. This game's overall look and feel is great. It reminds me of old cartoons with the way the sun is rendered. This is another game where you wouldn't want anyone to change the graphics at all. It should be left exactly as is.
It is certainly possible, but highly unlikely that a situation would present itself where Virtual On would be developed by a Western Developer, and still do the series justice.
| TapamN wrote: |
Uhm... just as an aside, the Streetwise people were told to make it like that by Capcom Japan.
http://hg101.classicgaming.gamespy.com/finalfight/finalfight2.htm
| Quote: |
| [...] according to one of the developers, the original plan was to make a cel-shaded 3D beat-em-up using character designs from Capcom mainstay artist Akiman, but the suits in Japan wanted them to make the game more "American". |
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I was unaware of this. Thanks much for the clarrification.
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sfried
Joined: 08 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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| lordnikon wrote: |
"Now this isn't to say the West is never capable of making an over the top arcade game, or that the Japanese always get it right (Sega Rally 2006 wasn't necessarily indicative of the series either)."
It is definatly possible for a western developer to make a game that looks compelling and has good gameplay. It is just very rare when this actually happens. So many western games attempt to model objects based on real life. They want to make grass look just like real grass, and for walls to look just like real walls. |
That's for most high-profile American game designers such as id and Epic. Of course, if we are just talking concept art and design and not just low-poly ones, I would mention the new Prince of Persia seems to be taking this approach.
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Gironika
Joined: 06 Dec 2007
Location: Counter-current space
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| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 11:58 pm Post subject: |
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| plumcarrot wrote: |
| when sega does well it goes unaccredited. like choosing a western developer to port outrun. |
or like AV doing F-Zero GX for Nintendo, being hands down one of the best installments in the series. I don't know how good the Sonic-Racer-titles hold up to racing pedigree though it seems like GX is unrivaled in that regard.
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Kiken
Joined: 07 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 5:21 am Post subject: |
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| Persona-sama wrote: |
| They also made the Saturn Final Fight fighting game, which was supposed to be pretty bad though. |
Final Fight Revenge
If the game didn't have a ludicrous resale value, I'd tell people to check it out to see just how hilariously awful it is.
OOH, OOOH! Can I add the beauitfully plastic saturated world of Bust A Move/Bust A Groove to this list?
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exodus
Joined: 19 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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this is a nice topic - can we try to keep on it?
I would appreciate it!
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Szcz
Joined: 07 Dec 2007
Location: Walvis Bay
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| Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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Cubivore?
Intentionally cuboid awesomeness. I don't think such a game could ever get made again in today's risk averse boardroom-developed climate. The opening character has like, only 6 polygons. Which moneyman is going to greenlight that?
I personally loved the minimalist graphics.
Is there anything more adorable than a square piggy?
Also, gotta love their booklet art: CLICK
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I genuinely think the first two CDi Zelda games are good, and they have Metroidvania designs
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plumcarrot
Joined: 03 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 12:03 am Post subject: |
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Star Fox 2 - i still can`t believe what they got out of the snes
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dai jou bu
Joined: 06 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 12:54 am Post subject: |
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| exodus wrote: |
And dai jou bu - I think we're just talking poly games here. |
Ah, gotcha. Was a little bit confused at persona's requirements in his opening post.
Well, all of this talk about Virtual On reminds me how much G.Rev is trying to keep Virtual On alive with Senko no Ronde, which is probably one of the most beautiful games around, especially when seen in motion (I'm not talking about Revision X which pretty much got the Soul Calibur facelift when it was brought to the 360, although it lost a lot of little touches from the NAOMI original).
 
However, it looks like they based most of that game's engine from the code they stole from Psychic Force right down to the special move execution and getting slammed right into the invisible barrier serving as the walls of the arena. This is still a very awesome looking game to this day and came out at around the same time Virtual On did:
Also, PlayNC's free Korean/Japanese-exclusive Smash Star/Magical Smash, which pretty much plays like a cross between Mario and Virtua Tennis, runs at 1024x768. Its textures are pretty minimal for the resolution though. There's also a lot of nice touches put in for all of the arenas:
 
The floor to this stage for example is actually the glass for a clock, and the hands move around while you're playing on it. The music is also pretty groovy.
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TOLLMASTER
Joined: 06 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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Not technically related, but there's a lot of talk about Virtual On and I'd just like to point out that at least three of them got a 2D rendition of their 3D models in Super Robot Wars Alpha 3.
The best reason to watch that link starts at 4:40, if you're familiar with other Sega titles.
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leoboiko
Joined: 16 Aug 2008
Location: Brazil
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| Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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Tail Concerto was the one PS game I ever played that was actually colorful.
The cartoon characters did look like cartoons, not Quake crates.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwKdzp4L8n8
Also the game is good.
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Persona-sama
Joined: 06 Dec 2007
Location: Acrylic Polymer Dismulsion
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FortNinety
Joined: 06 Dec 2007
Location: New York, New York
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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That is pretty damn hot! And cute.
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sfried
Joined: 08 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 11:58 am Post subject: |
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Since somebody mentioned FFIVDS, it only makes sense to mention Avalon Code has some pretty impressive looking and animated character models (although the screens don't do the "animation" part justice):
 
  
Matrix Software really seems to know their 3D. I've heard they were the first to make PS 3D games look good.
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